Debt collection companies abuse this, and make it a catch-22 for people who dispute the debt. I have written dispute letters four times in the past three years. They 1) deliberately use a post office box so you can't send it certified, 2) ignore the dispute letter and act like you never said a thing 3) if you send it certified, nobody signs, or the signature is illegible. In about 99.9 percent of these cases these debt collection companies always fail to acknowledge the dispute. It is one of their main abuses. You can't even GET to the point of getting them to acknowledge you dispute it. I'll bet you won't find a person here who has disputed a debt -- a debt that was NOT theirs -- and ever found a collection company make a good faith, honorable verification to see if they have the correct person. I agree with the person beneath my box, dorysailor, that no documented defense of a claim should be eligible for sale until resolved.
I go further: every "notice of debt collection" letter MUST be signed by a person who actually is an employee, one who is more than just a warm body who answers the phone, and they must use a physical address and if they fail to acknowledge a disputed debt, face fines. Maybe they'll stop abusing this crucial first step.
Disputes are not investigated. That is a joke. Sending out a letter to whoever these debt collectors think is responsible for the debt is just rote -- it is not done in good faith or follow the letter of the law. They 1) use vague names, no signature, post office boxes, a million aliases for their debt collection business (THAT practice has to stop). The FTC says "reasonable" investigation but these companies do none, and that is the standard practice. A good start is having a realistic and fair and honest laws requiring the companies to verify debt without already having assumptions or worse, not caring if they have the right person or not. Any rule change needs to carry some penalty or it won't have any impact on an industry that has run roughshod over consumers now for two decades. Abuses abound.
There also should be special requirements for validating medical debt because of privacy rights. There seems to be no concern of violating people's privacy when it comes to medical debt collection activities.
You are making an assumption that most collection companies actually validate debt. First, that is THE problem. There is none. They send out a letter with vague name, post office box, no individual assigned to the account, use many aliases for the collection company names. I wrote back when I received one such letter and did so within the 30 day time frame. My letter was ignored, twisted around -- the response (coming 30 days later) said "here is the info you requested!" Their arrogance precedes them. To make any meaningful change, this chance to dispute the debt needs to be real, and not treated like a joke. Require the use of a physical address, no post office boxes, require these letters be signed so people can respond to a person with a certified letter.
Require more than just the company telling the debt collectors that Joe Blow owes me X amount of money -- it has to be real and provable and should be itemized.
The law is vague, and this is the first problem. Spell it out what these companies MUST do to validate debt and put teeth into it. It won't work if it's just meaningless words on paper because there are a lot of rules too many debt collection companies ignore.
Requiring debt validation, good faith, serious validation should be the same for all debt. Why would anyone distinguish? Having a debt collection company harassing you for a debt that isn't yours is just as bad no matter what they say the debt is for.
I also think the few laws there are now are slanted to allow debt collection companies to avoid doing even the basics that should be considered good business practices, such as MAKING SURE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT PERSON.
It is an outrage that under the FCRA, collectors don't have to investigate dispute that are "frivolous and irrelevent." My God. These are companies who have abused people for too long and in ways unimaginable. With language and an attitude like that, no wonder these companies have gotten away with so much.
Last, the FTC, the FCRA, the Consumer Protection Act -- all of them -- should do something about this horrible thing that lets the credit reporting agencies off the hook for reporting inaccurate information. I had inaccurate listing on one, and it wasn't my debt and I proved it but when I first called, I got from all "we only report what they tell us" blah blah I was livid. That is putting the fox in charge of the hen house. I had to get the doctor's manager to write a letter to the collection agency (which he did and very quickly) that I was not the person. Then THAT had to be mailed to this obnoxious company that ignored my dispute and request they validate, they completely ignored everything. When they got that letter from the doctor's office, they grudgingly took it off, and instead of A LETTER OF APOLOGY, THEY SENT ME A LETTER SAYING TO THE EFFECT WE ARE REMOVING THIS BUT WE WILL PUT IT BACK ON IF ANYONE ELSE COMPLAINS.
Please. I had no debt, they had the wrong person, they put it on MY CREDIT REPORTS AND THAT WAS THEIR ARROGANT ATTITUDE.
Then I had to sent the letter to the credit reporting agencies who just removed it didn't apologize.
This is no small thing. This can take up tremendous amount of time, you are not treated well even when it is abundantly clear they made a mistake and had the wrong person. So you need to start changing attitudes. This entire process has become anti-consumer. If that company had done its job in the first place, they would have verified it was not my debt. But they added insult to injury.
The ONLY way to get that attitude and actions changed it to put some muscle behind it with BOTH the debt collection companies AND the credit reporting agencies. I hope this comes to something, because what this has evolved into is a big money business there are law first that this is all they do, "debt collections" because they just harass and expend no time verifying.
Yes, the new federal rule should just get rid of any "frivolous and irrelevant" exception because it is so prone to abuse. It is offensive.
Answer to 1) what kind of consumer contacts do debt collectors... disputing the debt.
That presumes they actually follow the law and do a validation investigation. That is wrong, they do not.
I sent a letter to a company claiming I owed a debt and I was clear I was disputing the debt. A clear, declaratory sentence. I mailed it to the address listed. There was NO PERSON who signed this letter to me. I had to send it to To Whom It Concerned. But it was clear I was disputing the debt. I did so within two weeks, well within the 30 days. Yet they did nothing but wait 30 days and send me a letter saying "here is the info you requested."
It contained nothing I recognized.
You are presuming they are actually validating. This is the biggest mistake. They do none of that.
Any rule that defines what qualifies as a dispute would help. The clearer, the better. The vagueness now has led to abuses. Such as "frivolous and irrelevant" disputes. That is a license to abuse consumers.
I had the same situation with another cellular carrier. It seems it's a ploy to keep making the debt seem fresh. It was another early termination fee, and I wrote many letters before it was finally removed from my credit report. I think that the tactic of selling the same debt to keep it on a credit report definitely should stop. It is one debt, and there is a time limit for how long it stays on one's credit report. One way to keep track of this is to require people to be notified if a debt is sold. It is required when a mortgage is sold. It seems like a no-brainer. The rules should also be written to discourage -- no, to bar -- collections companies from passing around debt for the purpose of keeping it on credit reports.
Well I do want to shout. You've never been on the receiving end of a collections company that treats people like cattle with dollar signs on them, whether they owe money or not. And it's been going on for years. Shame that is the first comment to make to me.
I concur with previous comment. If consumers are informed when our mortgages are sold that should be a rule across the board. Sending a letter by mail isn't very expensive, either. It should contain the amount, info on original debt, the name and address of who owns the debt and I'd even add the amount the debt was sold for. Consumers can keep track for one thing, and make sure these debts are not posted twice on our credit reports, it will let people know who to contact about the debt.
The letter I received just said this communication is for the purpose of collecting a debt. First, it was supposed to be a "validation" letter, but they don't bother to validate they jump the gun.
Communication is always the best way to avoid confusion, so I don't think it would be a hardship on anyone to state clearly this is a debt collection agency/company -- why use euphemisms. And then to state unless such and such is paid by (whatever time frame is legal) this will be placed in collection. I believe there is some rule now to that effect, what I think the problem is, it is not handled consistently. Each of these many many debt collectors do their own thing. Some are better at communicating than others. Some deliberately do NOT communicate, for deliberate reasons.
Crafting consistent rules and regulations should be the start. And then actually requiring these companies follow them. If you don't put teeth into it, none of these collection agencies will bother. There are already rules. But we are here because of lack of obeying the law, lack of ethics, lack of clarity in the law, and in my opinion, laws that are slanted against the consumer.
Clear communication helps everyone, not just consumers. I think debt collectors when trying to collect just send bills, and everyone knows what a bill is. But when they devolve into harassment, they blur the lines between trying to collect debt within the law and behaving in misleading and abusive ways toward consumers.
As many nasty letters these collection companies send out, how can they object to spending money on a letter giving notice? TRuly, the robot calling, the letters, they have money enough for this. If they communicated clearly up front, they would save more money. The post office is still a good deal, not an expensive way to communicate.
You are missing the boat on the problem, though. It is not the costs or whether they should communicate. Most of these companies hire people who are barely literate, poorly trained and certainly uninformed -- wait, UNINFORMED -- about the laws that already exist regarding debt collection. That is a huge problem when trying to get information from an employee who doesn't know the law requires him/her to provide certain information.
This has come about from decades of lack of oversight, in my opinion. Lack of oversight, lack of clear rules and lack of enforcement. So, if they don't have to worry about following the law, they hire whoever they can cheap and don't bother to train them. This is why there are so many of these companies and after some of them do get in trouble, they just change their name and keep on doing the same law-breaking habits.
What should stop right away is the recorded message. I just causes too many problems. I got calls from a recorded message that said if this is so and so, please hang up. Well, if it is leaving that message on someone's voicemail, it's not going to hang up. They can call someone who now has the phone number of the person who had the debt -- and numbers are recycled that fast in growing areas like where I live -- and then before you know it someone is getting a dozen recorded calls for a debt that has nothing to do with them.
I also almost sued a debt collector over hundreds of calls placed right after one another to my home phone and at all hours. I paid my carrier for a phone extra that not just showed which numbers called but enabled me to block numbers. I was blocking this number for calling me at 10 pm and though that was it. But after looking over the bill which also included showing each number, I had almost 200 calls from that same number, which I googled and it was a debt collector, and it just was on auto dial.
That is an egregious abusive of the law as it stands now. and don't kid yourself if you don't think it doesn't still go on.
I printed out all the calls over a three day period and went to a lawyer who said you can sue for $1,000. Let me tell you, that isn't nearly enough. There should be civil penalities for doing such abusive, insane and twisted things like that. The calls were done some twice in the same minute. The first call I took and asked the man for his name and he hung up. I called back and of course -- as everyone will tell you, you don't get through. It's busy or it becomes a dropped call. So the catch-22 is you can't get in touch with the people to say stop the calls. I even wrote them, and I did send a copy of the file of calls, and then they finally stopped.
But the lack of doing squat for so long, the failure of this entire system to have any kind of concern for consumers and what they may be going through is what gives rise to such abuses. I can't say enough about this. I know this company told this mindless employee just put it on automatic call. Can you imagine if I had no blocker? This was a medical debt. What if I had a terminal illness? Do you think people ought to go through this?
I think these abuses have gone on and on for so very long, without anyone addressing them and I hardly think I am the only one with a horror story like this.
Number one: make it illegal for recorded calls. Period. End of story. And any debt collector who violates that ought to be slammed with a big fine. Hitting them in the pocketbook is the only way you will get these bad companies to do business according to the law.
No matter how you slice this conversation, phone calls are the biggest abuse. You can have rules and do about the time, but they are ignored. Until you or the FTC creates rules that fine these people -- and not put the burden on the consumer to sue -- this abuse will go on. I have to laugh at these querstions. You have to be putting me on. The most abusive things debt collectors do are with their phones. They block their numbers still. They use various numbers they mislead their identities. THE PROBLEM is the onus is on the hapless consumer to get legal redress. Not good enough.You need to create fines and actually impose them. That will stop this phone abuse. They call at work, always wkill have some excuse. Oh, this was the only number we had. and call after hours. Well we are in California. Please. Be honest, this is an outrage what these companies have done, and nobody has minded the store on them. Never should the onus be on the consumer to get this to stop. You have to find a lawyer who thinks a whopping $1,000 is worth suing over. Please. You have rigged this system in favor of the sharks., and that is why these sleazy companies have proliferated and have grown more and more egregious in their actions.
What you need to do is 1) no more recorded calls. 2) call from one number and 3) as soon as someone says stop calling, STOP. if there is any call beyond that, they get fined.
Agreed, people will have to write a letter because none of these companies will admit they were told to stop calling. But they do receive the letters, which should go to a physical address and to a person, not just a vague company name.
Last, stop allowing these bad companies to change their names. They get in trouble, they change their names, and go on doing terrible things under another name.
Just look online at some of these companies and how many names they've gone through.
The reason this got so bad is nobody has been looking out for the consumer.
This is unreal. Reading your "if there is a new federal rule regarding messages..." It seems like this agency is trying very hard to make it easy to get around the court decision which is one of the few that protected consumers, and they also seem to try to protect the company that abuse the phone because what these people do is harassment. They know it, and they know how to do it. They've gotten away with it for so long because they answer to no one, you've put the onus on the consumer to have to sue a debt collector who violates the law. This is unreal.
Why are these questions putting the onus, once again, one the consumer? It is the collectors who have harassed in the name of collecting a debt.
It is pretty easy to distinguish landline from cellphone -- google the number, that tells you. But creditors use recorded calling, that should be stopped. If they have a well-trained person, that person ought to be able to determine the time zone the consumer lives in. I agree with the previous comment. Creditors should assume the current mailing address is the correct one. How difficult is it to go from there in assessing the times that are appropriate to make calls?
Why should the consumer pay a filing fee at all if the collector is at fault? That could be a hardship on many people. The collection agencies need to follow the rules of doing their validation correctly, and this would not be an issue.
Why should the consumer pay a filing fee at all if the collector is at fault? That could be a hardship on many people. The collection agencies need to follow the rules of doing their validation correctly, and this would not be an issue.
What a great idea -- record them. Reading these comments, there are so many examples of abuse, it seems like this Consumer Protection agency ought to have gotten the message thus far: the phones are used to harass. The only way to get this to stop is to put some teeth into the laws through civil fines, not put the onus on the consumer to have to sue.
Why should the consumer pay a filing fee at all if the collector is at fault? That could be a hardship on many people. The collection agencies need to follow the rules of doing their validation correctly, and this would not be an issue.
They have done so. I've gotten calls from the same collector who will use a toll free, then a number with an area code, then that number will be changed by a digit. Google the number. That is so helpful. It will tell you the company that is calling. It was always the same on. I agree this is wrong, misleading, a fraudulent way to deal with people. But the totality of all I am reading here is that collectors are harassing and do it by phone. The thing to do is put some teeth into the laws that prevent this. Now, the only thing consumers can do is sue. And for $1000 -- and you'd be hard pressed to find a lawyer who will sue for such a small amount.
It has become a situation that slams the consumer, it has evolved into that.
Please will you make it a point to let this agency know that. That is information they may not be aware of. Thank you much for informing everyone of that. Please state that in several areas. You will help a lot of people if that practice is stopped.
The debt collector who harassed me did that number one on the "three others" -- I got calls saying "hey we'll settle for" such and such. It was a medical debt and I was tempted to say why? There is only going to be more medical debt. When times are that difficult for people, making the mortgage and getting medicine takes precedence.
I don't think it should be legal for any of these things to happen, publishing names, calling relatives and certainly not robo-repeat calling but yet as you read these comments they are going on. I hope this has a good outcome and there will be laws and fines for those companies that do this, because what is available now, suing the debt collector, has not put a dent in their egregious behavior.
First, the biggest problem with this entire issue of debt collection is summed up like this: the onus is on the consumer/debtor.
Consumers/debtors have the onus to prove harassment (by going to court). Consumers have to write to validate or invalidate debt and far too often the debt collector claims to never receive such a letter. I have a case in point with one company I sent a letter disputing the debt. And despite filing a complaint with this CFPB, once again, I got shafted. They did nothing to make the company acknowledge I wrote them in time and disputed the debt.
I would say that the first order of business is to make any new rules consistent. And enforce them.
Right now, people get letters from debt collectors -- or maybe phone calls -- and they are often not signed, tell you to write a post office box, they are vague about the origin of the debt but sure like to make threats, whether abusive or subtle.
I think all letters notifying consumers should be signed by an actual person who works for the debt collector. They also should provide a physical address, so we can send letters certified. Sending a certified letter is a bit more difficult to just "oh we never got anything."
You need to do more. These collection companies get into trouble, and they change their name and just go on doing the same thing that got them into trouble.
If the person disputes the debt there should be a requirement that says so and so disputed the debt. What happens is these companies don't take any of the laws on the books seriously at all. If they did, they wouldn't harass people at work, at home at all. If the onus wasn't on the person to have to hire a lawyer and sue for what -- a maximium of $1,000 -- these companies would put a lot more thought into making sure their facts were accurate.
And something desperately needs to be done to make these credit reporting companies be more responsible. How many times I've lost count where they just say "we are only reporting what they tell us" and I ask but don't you verify if it is accurate and they say oh that's not our job. This is what makes this system rife for abuse.
You are focusing on ONE thing: the validation letter. But this is a multi-faceted issue involving the original person who claims a debt is owed, the debt collection company and the credit reporting company. And in the end, it is always the consumer who bears the brunt of so many errors.
You also need to enforce rules that are there on the books. If someone sends a letter disputing a debt, these companies need to state that.
A validation letter is just one thing. A bonafide employee needs to sign the letter, and provide a physical address in which they will get certified letters to prove a person has written a dispute within the time frame.
God help us when these "debts" travel from company to company -- quite often to circumvent laws on the books that limit the amount of debt or prevent the amount from changing around and abusing the length of time these debts can stay on a credit report. That is something easy to fix: enforce the rules. One company bought the debt, it doesn't get moved on without that company notifying the credit reporting agency so this isn't reported as ten debts or whatever.
Please, also, don't tip toe around this and say "consumers are confused" by the number of companies. Let's face facts: it is deliberate maneuvering by these companies using different names to pressure and take shots at a person's credit report to make it look worse than it is. It's deliberate.
You need to hold all accountable: the debt collectors who for sooooooooo very long have abused the laws that do exist and know nothing will happen, and the credit reporting agencies who are 1) in bed with these debt collectors and 2) report anything regardless of its accuracy and then tell the consumer oh it's your problem.
And disclosure. If any of these debt collection companies are owned by these credit reporting agencies like Equifax or Experian etc., or have any type of business relationship beyond reporting they should be barred from debt collecting because it's a conflict of interest.
Too tough? No. It's just common sense and time to be fair.
GMT
This is the problem. What account would stay open for 20 years after being delinquent. It seems to me this is just a way to prolong as long as possible the ability to harass people for very old debt. There needs to be time limits. This type of thing, re-filing debt, selling the same debt to someone else, and then adding it back AGAIN to the credit report is just an excuse to harass the heck out of people and do it legally. These are not good business practices. This is harassment. Once a debt is placed on a credit report -- or even sooner -- once the debt letter is sent, time should start running and this agency needs to set time limits that are reasonable. Creditors have a right to try to collect true, accurate debt. But what happens is the debt is wildly inflated, then it runs the gamut of various collection agencies until nobody even remembers its genesis. This is all to harass.
That might work if each state had reasonable, intelligent and realistic collection rules. But just the fact that the cost of getting a report varies wildly shows such disparities from state to state. My opinion is that there desperately needs to be some uniformity. This would help people to know what is expected of them, and what to expect.
Oh My. There is just not enough space to comment on these debt diversion programs etc. I've read about good outcomes. I've read about horrifying outcomes in which little was done but fleece the consumer who in all goodwill thought they could work out debt repayment without going into bankruptcy court.
With this, I say 1) clear out the scammers 2) require some uniformity in the rules. If these agencies are honest who could object to a standard set of rules and regulations that make the process transparent (no, not violation privacy) and make it understandable to all. Good luck on this one. You could make a whole other topic just on the debt agencies.
CG I endorse and want to add again at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it is the wild fluctuation in rules across the country. This is not a "state's rights" issue as someone wants to make it, but a way to bring some fairness and intelligence to this process.
What Nancy H said exemplifies the problem: no standards across the board. Best of luck to you. What happens to you in this situation depends on the collection agency, the creditor (in the first place) and where you live. Where you live should not be a factor.
What Josephusmeyer said is a great succinct way to call for uniformity for the sake of making everyone who is hit with one of these suits able to stay in the game to defend oneself. All down the line, see the comments that are most often endorsed: they call for some uniformity in the rules across the states and ways to allow people to defending themselves without being intimidated by the court system or letting it be a hardship.
This is the PROBLEM over and over Joules thank you so much for stating it.
Why should lawyers get a pass from rules of the Bar Associations or rules of the court because they are now considered "debt collectors" -- even I did not know this, though I have seen advertised quite a bit lawyers in the "collection" business. This is wrong. I hope if anything, this very thing is addressed. Using a lawyer to send a letter is often a way to intimidate. People become too frightened to even respond. The rules are blown off by lawyers who go into this debt collection business because they make a fast easy buck, and they know the debtor has very little recourse, and there is so few rules that protect the consumer/debtor. Being in debt stopped being a crime decades ago, but the lack of rules that protect the debtor are bringing back these draconian practices. Uniformity, is needed, and making lawyers abide by the rules of the Bar. Just two right off. Thank you for doing this. It is bringing to light why this system has become so fraught with abuse.
I got hit with a notice from a doctor's office and his collection agency that I owed and -- get this -- never responded to their notices. First, I never got any notices and second, I called the doctor's office and validated that I have never been a patient there. The office manager even wrote a letter to the collection agency.
It was clearly THEIR mistake, and you know what? The collection agency got all hot and bothered and rude to me because then they had to pay to remove the notice of me "owing" a debt from the three credit reporting agencies -- boy I hope you go after these cowboys next -- and yet it was removed.
But while waiting for the letter, I managed to actually get someone on the phone from Equifax, I was so angry, and their attitude was, "we just report this" blah blah blah.
I say there ought to be sanctions, monetary sanctions, against these credit reporting agencies for making these mistakes and their cavalier attitude. They have this attitude of, so what? So what? This has been more than two years ago and still seethe because of the cavalier and rude attitude when it was clearly their mistake. I even called MY eye doctor and had him write a letter that I was HIS patient.
You think things don't get out of hand? Oh my. YOu don't know how this kind of thing hurts people's ratings, scores whatever and then add insult to injury when you deal with rude inept people. Sanctions. Hit them in the pocketbook and you will see how fast they will make sure they do not make any mistakes.
You are not living in the real world if you think it is just so easy, RBell. No, most consumers are not lawyers. The people using these debt collection practices are deliberately abusing the law because they know most who are harassed and in debt and working people who probably can't afford a lawyer. And I'll just bet it is worst in the states with the least amount of consumer protection.
Take care. You will sing a different tune when it is you on the meat hook.
Good idea debt neutrality. But the sad thing is, being in debt is NOT considered a crime -- however, the way the laws are now, and the abuses these collection agencies engage in, you might as well be considered a criminal. I agree. Set up a system where the consumer is on equal footing with the debt collectors.
Get a copy of the police report and mail it to all three. They HAVE to put a freeze on your report, and you get a pin, and if you have to lift it you need to have that pin. It is quite a pain. I had a burglary in 2012 -- 14 pages of items stolen, I had to call all my credit cards and get issued new ones. Heartbreaking --not just things like my computer, but items of great value, and great sentimental value. The least you should have is the peace of mind of having a freeze on your report. And they HAVE to do it. Otherwise, go to a lawyer and let them dangle on the end of the meat hook. It is a pain, but worth doing.
Response to Alf -- and I wish I knew how to link these -- I agree the medical profession has the worse abuses because they have the money to hire a full time agency. Yes they make mistakes. I just wrote up how one eye doc got me confused with another person with the same name.
The crux of this, I think, is make them be responsible. They do always want to blame someone else. It's the credit reporting agency. Not it's the doctor's office. It's this or that. That roulette wheel needs to stop, and if not, create sanctions that hit them in the pocket book. And the onus should NOT be on the consumer. How to do that is a matter of drafting up details, but it can be done. When you start to hold people responsible for their actions, then they suddenly stop making mistakes.
I agree and endorse what CMFritts says: This is the entire issue: all parties be above board and honest. But where does one find the most abuses? The most mistakes that can have a tremendous impact?
Uniformity in the law is a start, and when the abusers continue to make mistakes there should be financial sanctions against them.
gmt512
1
Debt collection companies abuse this, and make it a catch-22 for people who dispute the debt. I have written dispute letters four times in the past three years. They 1) deliberately use a post office box so you can't send it certified, 2) ignore the dispute letter and act like you never said a thing 3) if you send it certified, nobody signs, or the signature is illegible. In about 99.9 percent of these cases these debt collection companies always fail to acknowledge the dispute. It is one of their main abuses. You can't even GET to the point of getting them to acknowledge you dispute it. I'll bet you won't find a person here who has disputed a debt -- a debt that was NOT theirs -- and ever found a collection company make a good faith, honorable verification to see if they have the correct person. I agree with the person beneath my box, dorysailor, that no documented defense of a claim should be eligible for sale until resolved. I go further: every "notice of debt collection" letter MUST be signed by a person who actually is an employee, one who is more than just a warm body who answers the phone, and they must use a physical address and if they fail to acknowledge a disputed debt, face fines. Maybe they'll stop abusing this crucial first step.
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gmt512
2
Disputes are not investigated. That is a joke. Sending out a letter to whoever these debt collectors think is responsible for the debt is just rote -- it is not done in good faith or follow the letter of the law. They 1) use vague names, no signature, post office boxes, a million aliases for their debt collection business (THAT practice has to stop). The FTC says "reasonable" investigation but these companies do none, and that is the standard practice. A good start is having a realistic and fair and honest laws requiring the companies to verify debt without already having assumptions or worse, not caring if they have the right person or not. Any rule change needs to carry some penalty or it won't have any impact on an industry that has run roughshod over consumers now for two decades. Abuses abound. There also should be special requirements for validating medical debt because of privacy rights. There seems to be no concern of violating people's privacy when it comes to medical debt collection activities.
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gmt512
3
You are making an assumption that most collection companies actually validate debt. First, that is THE problem. There is none. They send out a letter with vague name, post office box, no individual assigned to the account, use many aliases for the collection company names. I wrote back when I received one such letter and did so within the 30 day time frame. My letter was ignored, twisted around -- the response (coming 30 days later) said "here is the info you requested!" Their arrogance precedes them. To make any meaningful change, this chance to dispute the debt needs to be real, and not treated like a joke. Require the use of a physical address, no post office boxes, require these letters be signed so people can respond to a person with a certified letter. Require more than just the company telling the debt collectors that Joe Blow owes me X amount of money -- it has to be real and provable and should be itemized. The law is vague, and this is the first problem. Spell it out what these companies MUST do to validate debt and put teeth into it. It won't work if it's just meaningless words on paper because there are a lot of rules too many debt collection companies ignore. Requiring debt validation, good faith, serious validation should be the same for all debt. Why would anyone distinguish? Having a debt collection company harassing you for a debt that isn't yours is just as bad no matter what they say the debt is for. I also think the few laws there are now are slanted to allow debt collection companies to avoid doing even the basics that should be considered good business practices, such as MAKING SURE YOU HAVE THE RIGHT PERSON. It is an outrage that under the FCRA, collectors don't have to investigate dispute that are "frivolous and irrelevent." My God. These are companies who have abused people for too long and in ways unimaginable. With language and an attitude like that, no wonder these companies have gotten away with so much. Last, the FTC, the FCRA, the Consumer Protection Act -- all of them -- should do something about this horrible thing that lets the credit reporting agencies off the hook for reporting inaccurate information. I had inaccurate listing on one, and it wasn't my debt and I proved it but when I first called, I got from all "we only report what they tell us" blah blah I was livid. That is putting the fox in charge of the hen house. I had to get the doctor's manager to write a letter to the collection agency (which he did and very quickly) that I was not the person. Then THAT had to be mailed to this obnoxious company that ignored my dispute and request they validate, they completely ignored everything. When they got that letter from the doctor's office, they grudgingly took it off, and instead of A LETTER OF APOLOGY, THEY SENT ME A LETTER SAYING TO THE EFFECT WE ARE REMOVING THIS BUT WE WILL PUT IT BACK ON IF ANYONE ELSE COMPLAINS. Please. I had no debt, they had the wrong person, they put it on MY CREDIT REPORTS AND THAT WAS THEIR ARROGANT ATTITUDE. Then I had to sent the letter to the credit reporting agencies who just removed it didn't apologize. This is no small thing. This can take up tremendous amount of time, you are not treated well even when it is abundantly clear they made a mistake and had the wrong person. So you need to start changing attitudes. This entire process has become anti-consumer. If that company had done its job in the first place, they would have verified it was not my debt. But they added insult to injury. The ONLY way to get that attitude and actions changed it to put some muscle behind it with BOTH the debt collection companies AND the credit reporting agencies. I hope this comes to something, because what this has evolved into is a big money business there are law first that this is all they do, "debt collections" because they just harass and expend no time verifying. Yes, the new federal rule should just get rid of any "frivolous and irrelevant" exception because it is so prone to abuse. It is offensive.
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gmt512
4Answer to 1) what kind of consumer contacts do debt collectors... disputing the debt. That presumes they actually follow the law and do a validation investigation. That is wrong, they do not. I sent a letter to a company claiming I owed a debt and I was clear I was disputing the debt. A clear, declaratory sentence. I mailed it to the address listed. There was NO PERSON who signed this letter to me. I had to send it to To Whom It Concerned. But it was clear I was disputing the debt. I did so within two weeks, well within the 30 days. Yet they did nothing but wait 30 days and send me a letter saying "here is the info you requested." It contained nothing I recognized. You are presuming they are actually validating. This is the biggest mistake. They do none of that. Any rule that defines what qualifies as a dispute would help. The clearer, the better. The vagueness now has led to abuses. Such as "frivolous and irrelevant" disputes. That is a license to abuse consumers.
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gmt512
5
I had the same situation with another cellular carrier. It seems it's a ploy to keep making the debt seem fresh. It was another early termination fee, and I wrote many letters before it was finally removed from my credit report. I think that the tactic of selling the same debt to keep it on a credit report definitely should stop. It is one debt, and there is a time limit for how long it stays on one's credit report. One way to keep track of this is to require people to be notified if a debt is sold. It is required when a mortgage is sold. It seems like a no-brainer. The rules should also be written to discourage -- no, to bar -- collections companies from passing around debt for the purpose of keeping it on credit reports.
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gmt512
6
Well I do want to shout. You've never been on the receiving end of a collections company that treats people like cattle with dollar signs on them, whether they owe money or not. And it's been going on for years. Shame that is the first comment to make to me.
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gmt512
7
I concur with previous comment. If consumers are informed when our mortgages are sold that should be a rule across the board. Sending a letter by mail isn't very expensive, either. It should contain the amount, info on original debt, the name and address of who owns the debt and I'd even add the amount the debt was sold for. Consumers can keep track for one thing, and make sure these debts are not posted twice on our credit reports, it will let people know who to contact about the debt.
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gmt512
8
I think it should be kept uniform. Why differentiate between credit card or auto loans? It seems to make sense for sellers to send notification.
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gmt512
9
The letter I received just said this communication is for the purpose of collecting a debt. First, it was supposed to be a "validation" letter, but they don't bother to validate they jump the gun. Communication is always the best way to avoid confusion, so I don't think it would be a hardship on anyone to state clearly this is a debt collection agency/company -- why use euphemisms. And then to state unless such and such is paid by (whatever time frame is legal) this will be placed in collection. I believe there is some rule now to that effect, what I think the problem is, it is not handled consistently. Each of these many many debt collectors do their own thing. Some are better at communicating than others. Some deliberately do NOT communicate, for deliberate reasons. Crafting consistent rules and regulations should be the start. And then actually requiring these companies follow them. If you don't put teeth into it, none of these collection agencies will bother. There are already rules. But we are here because of lack of obeying the law, lack of ethics, lack of clarity in the law, and in my opinion, laws that are slanted against the consumer.
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gmt512
10
Clear communication helps everyone, not just consumers. I think debt collectors when trying to collect just send bills, and everyone knows what a bill is. But when they devolve into harassment, they blur the lines between trying to collect debt within the law and behaving in misleading and abusive ways toward consumers. As many nasty letters these collection companies send out, how can they object to spending money on a letter giving notice? TRuly, the robot calling, the letters, they have money enough for this. If they communicated clearly up front, they would save more money. The post office is still a good deal, not an expensive way to communicate. You are missing the boat on the problem, though. It is not the costs or whether they should communicate. Most of these companies hire people who are barely literate, poorly trained and certainly uninformed -- wait, UNINFORMED -- about the laws that already exist regarding debt collection. That is a huge problem when trying to get information from an employee who doesn't know the law requires him/her to provide certain information. This has come about from decades of lack of oversight, in my opinion. Lack of oversight, lack of clear rules and lack of enforcement. So, if they don't have to worry about following the law, they hire whoever they can cheap and don't bother to train them. This is why there are so many of these companies and after some of them do get in trouble, they just change their name and keep on doing the same law-breaking habits.
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gmt512
11
What should stop right away is the recorded message. I just causes too many problems. I got calls from a recorded message that said if this is so and so, please hang up. Well, if it is leaving that message on someone's voicemail, it's not going to hang up. They can call someone who now has the phone number of the person who had the debt -- and numbers are recycled that fast in growing areas like where I live -- and then before you know it someone is getting a dozen recorded calls for a debt that has nothing to do with them. I also almost sued a debt collector over hundreds of calls placed right after one another to my home phone and at all hours. I paid my carrier for a phone extra that not just showed which numbers called but enabled me to block numbers. I was blocking this number for calling me at 10 pm and though that was it. But after looking over the bill which also included showing each number, I had almost 200 calls from that same number, which I googled and it was a debt collector, and it just was on auto dial. That is an egregious abusive of the law as it stands now. and don't kid yourself if you don't think it doesn't still go on. I printed out all the calls over a three day period and went to a lawyer who said you can sue for $1,000. Let me tell you, that isn't nearly enough. There should be civil penalities for doing such abusive, insane and twisted things like that. The calls were done some twice in the same minute. The first call I took and asked the man for his name and he hung up. I called back and of course -- as everyone will tell you, you don't get through. It's busy or it becomes a dropped call. So the catch-22 is you can't get in touch with the people to say stop the calls. I even wrote them, and I did send a copy of the file of calls, and then they finally stopped. But the lack of doing squat for so long, the failure of this entire system to have any kind of concern for consumers and what they may be going through is what gives rise to such abuses. I can't say enough about this. I know this company told this mindless employee just put it on automatic call. Can you imagine if I had no blocker? This was a medical debt. What if I had a terminal illness? Do you think people ought to go through this? I think these abuses have gone on and on for so very long, without anyone addressing them and I hardly think I am the only one with a horror story like this. Number one: make it illegal for recorded calls. Period. End of story. And any debt collector who violates that ought to be slammed with a big fine. Hitting them in the pocketbook is the only way you will get these bad companies to do business according to the law.
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gmt512
12
No matter how you slice this conversation, phone calls are the biggest abuse. You can have rules and do about the time, but they are ignored. Until you or the FTC creates rules that fine these people -- and not put the burden on the consumer to sue -- this abuse will go on. I have to laugh at these querstions. You have to be putting me on. The most abusive things debt collectors do are with their phones. They block their numbers still. They use various numbers they mislead their identities. THE PROBLEM is the onus is on the hapless consumer to get legal redress. Not good enough.You need to create fines and actually impose them. That will stop this phone abuse. They call at work, always wkill have some excuse. Oh, this was the only number we had. and call after hours. Well we are in California. Please. Be honest, this is an outrage what these companies have done, and nobody has minded the store on them. Never should the onus be on the consumer to get this to stop. You have to find a lawyer who thinks a whopping $1,000 is worth suing over. Please. You have rigged this system in favor of the sharks., and that is why these sleazy companies have proliferated and have grown more and more egregious in their actions. What you need to do is 1) no more recorded calls. 2) call from one number and 3) as soon as someone says stop calling, STOP. if there is any call beyond that, they get fined. Agreed, people will have to write a letter because none of these companies will admit they were told to stop calling. But they do receive the letters, which should go to a physical address and to a person, not just a vague company name. Last, stop allowing these bad companies to change their names. They get in trouble, they change their names, and go on doing terrible things under another name. Just look online at some of these companies and how many names they've gone through. The reason this got so bad is nobody has been looking out for the consumer.
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gmt512
13
This is unreal. Reading your "if there is a new federal rule regarding messages..." It seems like this agency is trying very hard to make it easy to get around the court decision which is one of the few that protected consumers, and they also seem to try to protect the company that abuse the phone because what these people do is harassment. They know it, and they know how to do it. They've gotten away with it for so long because they answer to no one, you've put the onus on the consumer to have to sue a debt collector who violates the law. This is unreal.
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gmt512
14
Why are these questions putting the onus, once again, one the consumer? It is the collectors who have harassed in the name of collecting a debt. It is pretty easy to distinguish landline from cellphone -- google the number, that tells you. But creditors use recorded calling, that should be stopped. If they have a well-trained person, that person ought to be able to determine the time zone the consumer lives in. I agree with the previous comment. Creditors should assume the current mailing address is the correct one. How difficult is it to go from there in assessing the times that are appropriate to make calls?
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gmt512
15
Why should the consumer pay a filing fee at all if the collector is at fault? That could be a hardship on many people. The collection agencies need to follow the rules of doing their validation correctly, and this would not be an issue.
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gmt512
16
Why should the consumer pay a filing fee at all if the collector is at fault? That could be a hardship on many people. The collection agencies need to follow the rules of doing their validation correctly, and this would not be an issue.
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gmt512
17
What a great idea -- record them. Reading these comments, there are so many examples of abuse, it seems like this Consumer Protection agency ought to have gotten the message thus far: the phones are used to harass. The only way to get this to stop is to put some teeth into the laws through civil fines, not put the onus on the consumer to have to sue.
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gmt512
18
Why should the consumer pay a filing fee at all if the collector is at fault? That could be a hardship on many people. The collection agencies need to follow the rules of doing their validation correctly, and this would not be an issue.
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gmt512
19
They have done so. I've gotten calls from the same collector who will use a toll free, then a number with an area code, then that number will be changed by a digit. Google the number. That is so helpful. It will tell you the company that is calling. It was always the same on. I agree this is wrong, misleading, a fraudulent way to deal with people. But the totality of all I am reading here is that collectors are harassing and do it by phone. The thing to do is put some teeth into the laws that prevent this. Now, the only thing consumers can do is sue. And for $1000 -- and you'd be hard pressed to find a lawyer who will sue for such a small amount. It has become a situation that slams the consumer, it has evolved into that.
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gmt512
20
Please will you make it a point to let this agency know that. That is information they may not be aware of. Thank you much for informing everyone of that. Please state that in several areas. You will help a lot of people if that practice is stopped.
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gmt512
21
The debt collector who harassed me did that number one on the "three others" -- I got calls saying "hey we'll settle for" such and such. It was a medical debt and I was tempted to say why? There is only going to be more medical debt. When times are that difficult for people, making the mortgage and getting medicine takes precedence. I don't think it should be legal for any of these things to happen, publishing names, calling relatives and certainly not robo-repeat calling but yet as you read these comments they are going on. I hope this has a good outcome and there will be laws and fines for those companies that do this, because what is available now, suing the debt collector, has not put a dent in their egregious behavior.
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gmt512
22
First, the biggest problem with this entire issue of debt collection is summed up like this: the onus is on the consumer/debtor. Consumers/debtors have the onus to prove harassment (by going to court). Consumers have to write to validate or invalidate debt and far too often the debt collector claims to never receive such a letter. I have a case in point with one company I sent a letter disputing the debt. And despite filing a complaint with this CFPB, once again, I got shafted. They did nothing to make the company acknowledge I wrote them in time and disputed the debt. I would say that the first order of business is to make any new rules consistent. And enforce them. Right now, people get letters from debt collectors -- or maybe phone calls -- and they are often not signed, tell you to write a post office box, they are vague about the origin of the debt but sure like to make threats, whether abusive or subtle. I think all letters notifying consumers should be signed by an actual person who works for the debt collector. They also should provide a physical address, so we can send letters certified. Sending a certified letter is a bit more difficult to just "oh we never got anything." You need to do more. These collection companies get into trouble, and they change their name and just go on doing the same thing that got them into trouble. If the person disputes the debt there should be a requirement that says so and so disputed the debt. What happens is these companies don't take any of the laws on the books seriously at all. If they did, they wouldn't harass people at work, at home at all. If the onus wasn't on the person to have to hire a lawyer and sue for what -- a maximium of $1,000 -- these companies would put a lot more thought into making sure their facts were accurate. And something desperately needs to be done to make these credit reporting companies be more responsible. How many times I've lost count where they just say "we are only reporting what they tell us" and I ask but don't you verify if it is accurate and they say oh that's not our job. This is what makes this system rife for abuse. You are focusing on ONE thing: the validation letter. But this is a multi-faceted issue involving the original person who claims a debt is owed, the debt collection company and the credit reporting company. And in the end, it is always the consumer who bears the brunt of so many errors. You also need to enforce rules that are there on the books. If someone sends a letter disputing a debt, these companies need to state that. A validation letter is just one thing. A bonafide employee needs to sign the letter, and provide a physical address in which they will get certified letters to prove a person has written a dispute within the time frame. God help us when these "debts" travel from company to company -- quite often to circumvent laws on the books that limit the amount of debt or prevent the amount from changing around and abusing the length of time these debts can stay on a credit report. That is something easy to fix: enforce the rules. One company bought the debt, it doesn't get moved on without that company notifying the credit reporting agency so this isn't reported as ten debts or whatever. Please, also, don't tip toe around this and say "consumers are confused" by the number of companies. Let's face facts: it is deliberate maneuvering by these companies using different names to pressure and take shots at a person's credit report to make it look worse than it is. It's deliberate. You need to hold all accountable: the debt collectors who for sooooooooo very long have abused the laws that do exist and know nothing will happen, and the credit reporting agencies who are 1) in bed with these debt collectors and 2) report anything regardless of its accuracy and then tell the consumer oh it's your problem. And disclosure. If any of these debt collection companies are owned by these credit reporting agencies like Equifax or Experian etc., or have any type of business relationship beyond reporting they should be barred from debt collecting because it's a conflict of interest. Too tough? No. It's just common sense and time to be fair. GMT
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gmt512
23
This is the problem. What account would stay open for 20 years after being delinquent. It seems to me this is just a way to prolong as long as possible the ability to harass people for very old debt. There needs to be time limits. This type of thing, re-filing debt, selling the same debt to someone else, and then adding it back AGAIN to the credit report is just an excuse to harass the heck out of people and do it legally. These are not good business practices. This is harassment. Once a debt is placed on a credit report -- or even sooner -- once the debt letter is sent, time should start running and this agency needs to set time limits that are reasonable. Creditors have a right to try to collect true, accurate debt. But what happens is the debt is wildly inflated, then it runs the gamut of various collection agencies until nobody even remembers its genesis. This is all to harass.
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gmt512
24
That might work if each state had reasonable, intelligent and realistic collection rules. But just the fact that the cost of getting a report varies wildly shows such disparities from state to state. My opinion is that there desperately needs to be some uniformity. This would help people to know what is expected of them, and what to expect.
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gmt512
25
Oh My. There is just not enough space to comment on these debt diversion programs etc. I've read about good outcomes. I've read about horrifying outcomes in which little was done but fleece the consumer who in all goodwill thought they could work out debt repayment without going into bankruptcy court. With this, I say 1) clear out the scammers 2) require some uniformity in the rules. If these agencies are honest who could object to a standard set of rules and regulations that make the process transparent (no, not violation privacy) and make it understandable to all. Good luck on this one. You could make a whole other topic just on the debt agencies.
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gmt512
26
Who do you work for?
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gmt512
27
Excellent.
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gmt512
28
CG I endorse and want to add again at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it is the wild fluctuation in rules across the country. This is not a "state's rights" issue as someone wants to make it, but a way to bring some fairness and intelligence to this process.
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gmt512
29
What Nancy H said exemplifies the problem: no standards across the board. Best of luck to you. What happens to you in this situation depends on the collection agency, the creditor (in the first place) and where you live. Where you live should not be a factor.
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gmt512
30
What Josephusmeyer said is a great succinct way to call for uniformity for the sake of making everyone who is hit with one of these suits able to stay in the game to defend oneself. All down the line, see the comments that are most often endorsed: they call for some uniformity in the rules across the states and ways to allow people to defending themselves without being intimidated by the court system or letting it be a hardship.
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gmt512
31
If it was fine as it is, why is this agency going through this to try to develop a more reasonable and intelligent way to deal with debt collectors?
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gmt512
32
This is the PROBLEM over and over Joules thank you so much for stating it. Why should lawyers get a pass from rules of the Bar Associations or rules of the court because they are now considered "debt collectors" -- even I did not know this, though I have seen advertised quite a bit lawyers in the "collection" business. This is wrong. I hope if anything, this very thing is addressed. Using a lawyer to send a letter is often a way to intimidate. People become too frightened to even respond. The rules are blown off by lawyers who go into this debt collection business because they make a fast easy buck, and they know the debtor has very little recourse, and there is so few rules that protect the consumer/debtor. Being in debt stopped being a crime decades ago, but the lack of rules that protect the debtor are bringing back these draconian practices. Uniformity, is needed, and making lawyers abide by the rules of the Bar. Just two right off. Thank you for doing this. It is bringing to light why this system has become so fraught with abuse.
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gmt512
33
I got hit with a notice from a doctor's office and his collection agency that I owed and -- get this -- never responded to their notices. First, I never got any notices and second, I called the doctor's office and validated that I have never been a patient there. The office manager even wrote a letter to the collection agency. It was clearly THEIR mistake, and you know what? The collection agency got all hot and bothered and rude to me because then they had to pay to remove the notice of me "owing" a debt from the three credit reporting agencies -- boy I hope you go after these cowboys next -- and yet it was removed. But while waiting for the letter, I managed to actually get someone on the phone from Equifax, I was so angry, and their attitude was, "we just report this" blah blah blah. I say there ought to be sanctions, monetary sanctions, against these credit reporting agencies for making these mistakes and their cavalier attitude. They have this attitude of, so what? So what? This has been more than two years ago and still seethe because of the cavalier and rude attitude when it was clearly their mistake. I even called MY eye doctor and had him write a letter that I was HIS patient. You think things don't get out of hand? Oh my. YOu don't know how this kind of thing hurts people's ratings, scores whatever and then add insult to injury when you deal with rude inept people. Sanctions. Hit them in the pocketbook and you will see how fast they will make sure they do not make any mistakes.
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gmt512
34
You are not living in the real world if you think it is just so easy, RBell. No, most consumers are not lawyers. The people using these debt collection practices are deliberately abusing the law because they know most who are harassed and in debt and working people who probably can't afford a lawyer. And I'll just bet it is worst in the states with the least amount of consumer protection. Take care. You will sing a different tune when it is you on the meat hook.
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gmt512
35
Good idea debt neutrality. But the sad thing is, being in debt is NOT considered a crime -- however, the way the laws are now, and the abuses these collection agencies engage in, you might as well be considered a criminal. I agree. Set up a system where the consumer is on equal footing with the debt collectors.
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gmt512
36
There ought to be a limit on the number of times that debt can be sold.
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gmt512
37
Get a copy of the police report and mail it to all three. They HAVE to put a freeze on your report, and you get a pin, and if you have to lift it you need to have that pin. It is quite a pain. I had a burglary in 2012 -- 14 pages of items stolen, I had to call all my credit cards and get issued new ones. Heartbreaking --not just things like my computer, but items of great value, and great sentimental value. The least you should have is the peace of mind of having a freeze on your report. And they HAVE to do it. Otherwise, go to a lawyer and let them dangle on the end of the meat hook. It is a pain, but worth doing.
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gmt512
38
Response to Alf -- and I wish I knew how to link these -- I agree the medical profession has the worse abuses because they have the money to hire a full time agency. Yes they make mistakes. I just wrote up how one eye doc got me confused with another person with the same name. The crux of this, I think, is make them be responsible. They do always want to blame someone else. It's the credit reporting agency. Not it's the doctor's office. It's this or that. That roulette wheel needs to stop, and if not, create sanctions that hit them in the pocket book. And the onus should NOT be on the consumer. How to do that is a matter of drafting up details, but it can be done. When you start to hold people responsible for their actions, then they suddenly stop making mistakes.
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gmt512
39
To the comment by Millertime. I disagree. Keeping a paper trail protects everyone, especially the most vulnerable and least able to protect oneself.
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gmt512
40
I agree and endorse what CMFritts says: This is the entire issue: all parties be above board and honest. But where does one find the most abuses? The most mistakes that can have a tremendous impact? Uniformity in the law is a start, and when the abusers continue to make mistakes there should be financial sanctions against them.
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